November 5, 1993



Prayer: Father, we gather in your name, to adore you, to enjoy, to meet

together for a few moments.. we thank you our Father for our Lord

Jesus.. for his life that he has granted to us in and through his

death... we thank you that we can serve him.. we take the energy of our

days and present to you.. and we pray our Father that you would be

pleased to help us today.. as we think a few things.. enjoy our time

together.. thank you for a weekend for us.. we pray earnestly that

across our land, that as your servants gather with the people of God

would worship you.. that our worship may be in truth and in spirit.. and

that we might worship and adore our Savior.. and that our worship

services would be grand and glorious.. that you might be honored.. so we

give our moments to you in Jesus' name. Amen.



re: doctrine of baptism in the book of Acts.. the real question is.. it

does seem as though the gifts of the Spirit is limited to.. the Apostles

and praying.. particularly Paul, how would we respond to that.. other

than inventing the notion of Acts being a transitional book.. well, one

way to handle that is to say that if you look at the pattern of baptisms

in the book of Acts.. is not consistent.. and I think the best that

you can say is that.. there is no consistent pattern of the relationship

of water baptism to spirit baptism, and the laying of hands... there are

contrasting events that occur each time.. I would take it that the

reason the Spirit... I hate to say this, but seems to me that you can be

regenerated without having the Spirit.. in the book of Acts.. ugly as

that sounds.. with all the implications that that has with Paul's

writings.. if you don't have the Spirit, you're not a Christian.. seems

to me that in the book of Acts, the determinant growing ministry of

sometimes came apart at regeneration.. so I come away from the book of

Acts, and take all these stories together, and you're only really

dealing with Acts 2, 10, 8, 9, 19.. those are your standard texts.. but

you don't have a consistent pattern.. what you have consistently is

diverse ethnic groups.. you have Jews, you have Samaritans.. you have

followers of John the Baptist.. I think rather than saying that Acts is

a transitional book, and you can't decide... is that I'd rather say...

the mercy of bringing, for the Jews, different ethnic groups into this

body of believers... God performed his mercy of giving the Spirit

through the laying on of hands.. and he obviously doesn't do that

again.. I don't know of any Charismatics who would say that the Spirit

is given by the laying on of hands.. the gifts of the Spirit are, but

not the Spirit.. right?..



.. i'm just basically a hacker, that's read it an awful lot.. and read

the commentaries.. my guess would be that what we have here is a..

narrowed, prejudicial history contructed by Luke to emphasize the

propagation of the Gospel.. in two respects: its triumph over all

adversaries, and its coming to the very center of Rome.. and I think

it's a historically oriented apologetical piece for the triumph of

Christianity..



... that's a deduction.. in all fairness what you're doing is you're

looking at data, in which the Scriptures are silent.. everybody does the

same thing, it's not we, and them, and us.. we all do it.. we look at

the silence of God, through a grid of prejudice.. prejudice isn't a bad

word, it's just what all of us possess.. and we say, how do you explain

that.. we pick up a few textual clues, and we build an explanation that

is bigger than those clues.. that's called deduction.. I don't think

that's bad, unless it contradicts.. it's not bad, unless it contradicts

the data you have, but just be honest about it.. this is how we've

understood it.. this is how we made up the scenario.. that may or may

not be true, but it does seem to handle the data.. I can live with

that.. if everybody would do that, I think it'd be a grand world to live

in.. I guess I'm basically opposed to intimidators.. I get intimidated

by dispensationalists who see more clearly in Daniel than I do.. and I

don't know how they do it.... but to say that that one interpretation of

eschatology determines the spiritual life of the blessed hope.. that's

pulling my hair.... think about the implication of that.. think about

any implication that says that current insight will make you a better

Christian.. you have to damn everybody that comes before you, at least

they're inferior.. I just can't do that.. I think that Hippolytus is as

smart as we are.... I guess I came away from that worship service

thinking to myself there's a tremendous sociological component.. what

was missing in that worship service.. I'm not saying it's wrong, it's

just not there.. if they took that out of apostolic tradition.... in a

normal, fairly normal at least we might say, at least in Rome.. there is

no normal, but let's say Rome.. third decade, second century.. what's

missing in that worship service?... preaching. And that was a typical

worship service of the 3rd century.. and yet we have it in all of ours,

but we don't have the Lord's Table.. what else did they have that we

don't have.. standing to hear the Word of God read.. well, better put,

hear the Word of God read.. only among Southern Baptists, and some

independent Baptists churches.. used to be more legalistic, King James

only people.. when I preach in those churches, they stand to hear the

Word of God read.. but they only read a small passage... you ask

yourself why was there an emphasis upon communion, and why was there no

preaching.. and the answer is.. it was a worship service.. these people

don't have a Bible.. people are probably vastly illiterate people.. and

the only time they're going to get to hear the Word is when it's read

for them.. so there's going to be a tremendous emphasis.. illiteracy and

ignorance don't go together.. my Dad was an illiterate man, but he was

not ignorant.. he was a pretty smart dude.. he just couldn't conform to

the canons of the enlightenment.. but talk about being smart.. my Dad

was smart.. but he couldn't read... but he had a sharp mind.. I think in

the early church, they were pretty smart people.. and they depended upon

hearing the Word read to them.. and that's how they got the Scriptures..

they sang the Gospels.. they heard the Gospels read.. and they

memorialized the very center of the Gospel, which is crucifixion.. so

they got the whole Gospel in metaphor every Lord's Day they met, every

time they met..



why did we put an emphasis, and still do, upon preaching.. we didn't

just suddenly discover that Paul did it on Mars Hill.. what we did was

is we came to it, and saw it illustrated in the Bible, and said that's

what God does.. why do we do it.. I'm not saying it's wrong that we do

it.. I'm just saying.. there's a sociological component to what we put

in worship services.. and the answer is.. late medieval Roman

Catholicism had lost the Bible and teaching to the common man.. so when

the Reformation came.. and we tore down those vestlike altars in those

churches.. we put a Bible there.. and sensed there was massive

ignorance... we were forced to become teachers of the Bible..



look how sociological our ingredients are.. and yet look at what doesn't

change.. Christ.. at the very center of it..



the Bible says preach the word.. what the Bible says and the metaphors

we are to attach to it are two different things.. there was preaching

that they had back then.. that was ministry.. but it certainly wasn't in

3rd century Rome... we all know what it says.. there's no debate about

what the Bible says.. basically, [unless] it's textual criticism.. it's

what the Bible mean.. you know, our motto is Preach the Word.. and I've

looked at that... and said you know, we have a sociological definition

of that word.. if you think of our motto, what is your mental image.. a

person standing in the pulpit exegeting a portion of Scripture.....

there's a word for proclamation, that's not the word.. that word is a

general word which means scatter the seed.. it has the idea of

indiscriminate telling of the Gospel story.. not a professional office..

it's funny how we create images.. oh I think there should be preaching..

especially in our day where Biblical illiteracy is rising greater than

illiteracy...



... I think the great question is.. is there an ecclesiology in the

Bible.. there are three views.. there are many ecclesiologies in the

Bible.. there is one ecclesiology.. and there are none.. I take the

position that there are none.. and why did God leave this issue so

open.. He didn't give us ingredients.. but the form and expression and

priority of those ingredients he didn't give us.. why.. I think He did

it... here's a sociological interpretation, it's not Biblical.. but I

don't know one that is.. I'm just trying to explain what's there.. I

think He left it purposely loose so that.. in the propagation of the

Gospel, the building of God's kingdom.. Christianity can be ultimately

highly adaptable.. it's not tied down.. if you tie something to a

stretcher, it's going to die in the stretcher.. I think that's the real

problem with classical Pentecostalism.. it's tied with a dog that won't

bark.. that's the advantage of the Charismatics.. it's really loose..

that's the disadvantage of it too.. I think that's the disadvantage that

Vineyard movement got itself in, in 1990.. it got too tight, too

demanding.. so.. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong... if I was

Presbyterian... I'd swear it was in the Bible.. then I sat down with

Godly guys who are Baptists.. theology is really a function not of what

the Bible teaches, but of what verses in the Bible you choose to

prioritize.. that's the bottom line.. I wish they would help you to know

how to do that.. that would solve your theological problem.. if you look

at Calvin's system, he has chosen to have a ordered priority of verses..

and you look at Arminian's system, for instance, and he has chosen...

they're entering the same stream of Biblical knowledge from different

places and asking different questions.. and they erect different

systems.. and I think both are right.. or can be construed to be right..

if I were a Baptist, I would go to Acts 15.. and see it clearly there..

the Baptist form of church government.. the congregation said it's

right.. if I were Episcopalian.. I'd land right where the early church

did, in John's writings.. you have to add a little bit, but you can

convince the people if you don't talk too long that basic episcopacy was

there.. if I were Presbyterian, I'd go to Timothy.. and I would go to

Acts 15, same passage Baptists use.. because after it says the people

agreed, it was then the elders that said do it.. people agreed.. and

there I got it.. and I got teaching and preaching elders too.. I got

everything I need.. as long as people don't know that I'm playing games

with them.. so I come away saying there are some issues that God has

left fairly unclear, but we have made fairly clear.. and there are some

issues that are broadly clear but we don't emphasize.. Christ and

Calvary.. seems to me you got to find what's clear and that should be

your priority.. and then you just work down..



... my gripe is.. I think the Gospel is bigger than these things.. I

don't mind if a person speaks in tongues.. I don't think there's any

real advantage to it.. I was raised in the Assembly.. and I found them

to be fairly sane people.. very good people.. I liked the Assembly....

but I've been in some that square intimidate me.. that if you don't have

this insight, then you're not a complete Christian... I can probably say

to us that's Galatianism.. insight doesn't make you complete, Christ

does.. and if you have Christ, you got it in you.. but I think a lot of

people market their ideas with the idea that it will make you a better

person, the market value.. not the central ingredient.. a lot of hype

and PR.. so..



I'm having dinner next week with a fellow from the Vineyard movement

here in the city.. because I have a dear friend that I sent there.. and

I know what they're going to ask.. they're going to ask why would I do

that.. why would I send a dear friend to them.. well.. 'cause I think

they preach the Gospel, that's why.. I don't have to agree with people..

but I have to agree with their Christ.. and I'm going to tell them the

same reason I support a flaming Charismatic missionary in Jerusalem.. I

don't agree with that lady, because she is a flame thrower.. but I

really enjoy her.. she's got more guts than I do.. and if you can't do

some things, wisdom says you join and help those who can.. and she

doesn't really believe baptism began in Acts.. she believes it began in

Matthew 20.. I said to her, you know, you got the craziest view in the

world.. even the movement you're in don't agree with you.. that's fine..

because when she's done breathing on them the spirit, she's a solid

person.. and I keep saying to my dear friend.... when are you going to

drop all that albatross.. you don't need that albatross.. but she won't

talk to me on that.. we just have a good time together.. and she said

when are you going to get the spirit.. I said I got the spirit.. it's

sort of fun to talk about it.. but she loves the Lord.. can't knock

that..  I wouldn't invite her to my meeting.. but I wouldn't expect that

she would invite me to hers... you could disagree, but you don't have to

hate them, and you can respect.. that's what I've learned..



..I guess what I'm really saying is.. it doesn't matter how brilliant a

movement is when it starts.. that's what scares you.. because if there's

any other one of us.. a sense of gullibility and susceptibility to

inferiority.... and we just want wonderful things.. when you're up close

to a tree you can't see the forest.. when you back away from the tree,

you gain perspective.. so when you're right up, everything looks the

same, there's no value difference.. time tells a lot of stories.. what

time has told me is that no matter how excited a person gets whether

he's a cheswick guy.. a cheswick-holiness guy.. penteconstal guy..

charismatic guy.. an exchanged life guy.. no matter what he is.. when

it's all done, he's going to live way out here.. failures and

successes.. grind it out.. the essence of a spiritual life really boils

down to one word, and that's discipline.. there's no such a thing as a

passive spirituality.. spirituality is no accident.. Calvin Coolidge

said that we're all born with two ends.. one to think with, and the

other to sit on.. and if you can identify those ends and use them

properly, you're okay.. I think Calvin Coolidge was about right.. so if

you want to walk with God.. it seems to me that.. it's enormous time in

the Word of God.. takes enormous time of meditating on Scripture..

reading it is not enough.. you've got to study it.. and then you've got

to meditate on it.. you've got to fill your mind with the mind of God..

and you've got to learn to pray.. seriously pray.. and there are no great

rules for that, because I think the Spirit sort of left it loose for

us.. but we all know that we got to.. and I think honestly that we've

got to fast, because fasting is what gets all the crud out of your

life.. and I think also that we have to evangelize.. those are the basic

components of the disciplines of spirituality.. it seems to me that no

matter what system you create, you would wind up doing those things..

and that's why you find Godly people all over the place, in any system..



..I'm saying that there is deep spirituality in all these movements..

that it's a matter of hype as they proclaim, but time takes care of

them... I think all of us are going to stand in heaven and say two

things: it's a good thing that God didn't believe the worst things I

said.. and it's awfully nice that He didn't believe the best things I

said.. we all get carried away...



..I think the Vineyard movement's success by and large is a commentary

on another movement that emerges in the 30's and 40's.... ..in 20 years,

we will die.. I suspect that it won't accomplish what it promises, but

it will accomplish some wonderful things.. but not what it promised..

because every movement I've ever studied fits that scenario.. you don't

have to be a prophet.. but there's this thing within us.. that to do

what God wants us to do, we have to become excited about it.. it fades..

it too will fade.. when all the gas is done, it too will fade.. but

we'll see..



..here's my theory..... it's composed of ex-Methodists.. and ex-mainline

denominational people.. gone through the holiness two steps.. these are

come outers.. this is a come in'ism movement.. this is the spirit of

baptism comes.. to decadent and dying mainline churches.... let me say

it this way.. in the 1920's, the liberal said to us.. theology is a

function of sociology.. when the times change, you need to change your

gospel.. okay.. sociology determines theology.. and what they were doing

in the 20's was a wonderful thing.. they were trying to save

Christianity from secularists, atheists, and us.. so their mission was

wonderful.. you can't deny that they were trying to do a good thing.. on

the other hand they said, because we were preaching a gospel that

belonged to another world view, we were going to die.. okay, and that

would be logical.. we had the wrong gospel for the new setting,

technological age.. they had the new gospel for the new age, so they

would grow, we would die.. it sure looked right in the 20's.. but

something unusual happens.. we who were called irrelevant, silently and

quietly grew in the 30's and 40's.. rebuilding seminaries, educational

institutions of other varieties.. publication societies.. huge foreign

missionary societies..EMFA, IFMA.. a host of smaller missions like

Central America.. in 1976.. Time magazine called that year, that Mr.

Carter ascended to the highest office in the land, the year of

evangelicals.. the year of the narrow-minded irrelevant bigots.. so

something horrible happens.. the liberals said that we were going to die

because we were selling buggy whips in the 20th century when everyone

was driving gasoline driven cars.. if you're driving a gas-driven car,

you don't want to buy a 19th century buggy whip.. that's the way they

likened us to.. the problem is, his churches are dying.. if you go in a

mainline church, by and large, you sing that Joan Baez song, where have

all the young people gone.. long time passing.. and you look out across

the heads of those people and you can swear you're in Denver in a

snowstorm..  it's just the truth, we're not being mean, it's just the

way it is.. the churches have turned into museums.. where all you hear

is the echos of the past.. they're a geriatric society.. what do you

do.. the kids grow up to be 14, and they don't show up again.. there is

no future except poor people.. and when the charismatic movement came,

which I think was a spiritual movement, it brought some life into those

churches.. because in every one of those little churches, there's a

small cadre of people that were really born again.. and it brought hope

to them.. they got back in the Bible again.. they got together and they

sang.. it was a wonderful thing..



...and this movement is made up of a lot of disgruntled non-Charismatic

evangelicals.. have no tradition in the charismatic movement, but the

evangelical movement born in the 20's seems to be eclipsing now.. it's

running out of forward momentum.. that's us.. that's why we cringe....

the criteria we tell people that truth is.. now we all admit it's the

Bible.. but when you lay down.. it's pragmatics.. we're right because

we're growing.. now we would never admit it, but that's really what you

get.. and so our own criteria is eating our lunch.. in other words,

we're premillenialists on paper, which basically says.. now there's

various varieties, but the variety we get.. gives you the impression

that things are going to get bad not good.. or worse not better..

there's going to be a sort of decline.. I agree with that, ultimately,

not practically.. but what we really are in our heart of hearts is a

post-millenial hegelian.. we believe that things.. while we believe

they're declining, we believe there are always going to be improvement..

who do we get in chapel.. successful pastors.. we don't get failures....

my feeling about Dallas Seminary is this.. we could of had anybody it

would've worked in the 60's, 'cause there was lots of money.. and Dallas

was on the grow.. I know that God came out of heaven for us, but it was

hard in the 60's and 70's to find a movement that wasn't growing, good

or bad.. but then financial exegency came.. and I don't think we have a

practical eschatology to deal with it.. faculty was let go.. money was

very scarce.. student body dropped from 1500-1600 down to 700.. it's all

done under the table, and nobody really knew.. because what they became

was part-time students.... 80's and 90's.. the first change in about the

last 8 years we've just seen this year.. what that means is we've always

have had thousand or so students here.. but that doesn't count.. it's

how many hours they're taking.. because that's how much money they're

forking up.... to have a student here, taking now the average is about 9

hours, I think that guy and gal is going to at least a third more than

he had planned in terms of time.. that means we got to keep him here

that long, and her.. and that means.. it's costing us a lot more money

to get the final product than it did 10 years ago.. because they're

hanging around.. we're in trouble.. so you're looking at the FTE,

full-time equivalent.. it was once up to about 1400, now it's down to a

little over 800.. now that's great.. listen, we've got one of the best

track records in the world.. but we can't handle disappointment in our

movement.. so we have to create images.. I think, instead of being

realistic.. the amil's have a point.. things are not bad, things are not

good, they're about the same.. whoopie-doo.. I think that's a good

view.. sometimes in your bathtub they're good, but don't confuse them

with all bathtubs.. sometimes it's horrible, but don't confuse it with

all bathtubs.. try not to get too excited, and never try to get

depressed.. it's in the middle some place.. but we don't have a working

theory to allow it.. so we've taught guys a secularized enculturated

theory without meaning to.. so naturally they're going to drift to

somebody that has the immediate gas.. I would.. if I didn't have enough

sense to know that these things come and go.. and they leave a residual

behind that's not all that good sometimes.. in our movement we do the

same thing.. I'm not going to go jumping on the next shiny car.. 'cause

I've seen too many shiny cars come by.. I've seen them come by Dallas

Seminary.. my own classmates.. things aren't as they appear..



...don't change the message...

...when God isn't doing something, just relax..

...this is what I have found about organizations, like Crusades.. now

I'm deeply attached to Crusades.. now when God isn't doing something,

they work harder.. that's illogical.. when God isn't doing something,

take a vacation.. renew your strength.. go to school.. rest up.. because

God is going to do it again.. He's a great God.. He's more interested in

His success than we are.. but when God isn't doing, when the numbers

don't keep climbing, we get more desperate.. and when the numbers don't

keep climbing, we don't blame it on programs, we blame it on people..

and we always blame it on a lack of spirituality.. which is safe,

because none of us are spiritual.. so you always have someone to blame..

so what you do is turn to the lint in your belly button and that

complicates it even more.. because they're always some people that are

just flat naturally gifted.. that whether they preach it straight or not

straight, they're going to grow like a weed.. they're going to burn out

like a meteor at 40, but we don't tell those stories.. we hide those

stories.. I'm now 48, I've seen the meteors fall.. guys I would've never

expected.. one of my best friends, he's a good man, today he's out of

the ministry.. and I said to myself.. best preacher I've ever heard

here.. he was on the road to being a Swindoll, in a good sense.. I said,

well, why did you quit.. he said I quit because I was tired.. of doing

it in my own ability.. that's all I've been doing.. he was just a good

preacher.. well, if that's all you have is raw ability, you're going to

run out of that when you get to 40 too.. that's why we call it mid-life

crisis.. it's not mid-life crisis, it's simply the realization that you

can't operate on the same principles that you did when you were strong..

there's got to be some point..



...I guess I got a crazy theory.. and here's my crazy little theory.. go

where God sends you, and be faithful.. it's not the size of your

congregation, it's the size of your influence... and labor there until

the Lord calls you away.. but make sure he calls you away, not

difficulties.. you know, Thomas Boston labored all of his life to 40

people.. and yet I can't think of a more successful minister than Thomas

Boston.. and you're taught that that's a failure.. I don't believe

that.. some of God's choicest Godly servants are out in the boonies..

and at the great white throne, when we all divy up.. we will sing.. it

seems to me that we have drifted sociologically, to a leadership/CEO

model of the ministry.. not a pastoral ministry.. I'll be really

honest.. good people really don't care that you know Greek and Hebrew..

they really don't care.. they desperately need the benefits of what you

know, but they don't care to be told what you know.. what they want to

know is.. do you know God.. can you come to my bedside when I am

hurting.. can you come when my child is dying.. and just be there..

that's all.. they're asking for a pastor, and we're giving them CEO's..

it's no wonder they're seeking other things.. with that kind of a sloppy

shepherd, you've got to have wandering sheep.. at a seminary like this,

we emphasize doing.. skills.. and that's all we can do.. but if that's

all you have, you're disqualified.. a guy will go out of here, like some

of my friends put 30.. 40.. or 50 hours into a sermon.. and wonder why

in 3 years they're discouraged.. my answer is if you can't get up a

sermon in 8 hours, you're going to go back to school and figure out how

to do it.. because you've got too much to do for your people.. on your

knees and visiting.. you put that much time in sermon preparation..

that's why you came to school, to learn how to do it quick.. find the

tools.. labor through your character and through your integrity, not

through your mind merely.. God's people.. they're just not looking for

perfection, in fact they can smell it.. they're looking for honesty,

integrity.. somebody that really cares about them.. my pastor is not a

good preacher.... but when I come to die, I'm in good shape, because

that man knows how to live.. and I'd rather have a good pastor and a

lousy preacher than a great preacher who don't know how to pastor.. my

pastor knows how to pray.. my pastor has lived before me for almost 20

years, and has made no big mistakes, which means he doesn't have to

waste time correcting them.. he's just been consistent.. and I think

that a life of 40 years anywhere, in the USA or abroad, 40 years of

consistency will make you a trustworthy gray-haired person of great

influence.. but people don't believe that.. the old pelagian pharisaic

theory is.. we have to be someone.. no, you don't have to be someone,

just be yourself.. that's all you have to be.. with all your failures..

God's people aren't looking for perfection, they're looking for somebody

that loves them.. you can pick up the skills, they'll come.. but if you

don't have love, you're not there.. and as I look at the charismatics,

to be honest, I can honestly say they take time to care.. they got two

things on us.. they do seem to care.. and they do seem to worship a

great God.. and those are the two things.. in other words, they're the

answer to our lacks, if we would listen.. I think there's an albatross

with them, and that's the meteoric rise.. and their weakness when it

comes to stability of Scripture.. but not the stability of life..

there's a downside to that.. like there's a downside to us..



...have you ever seen that little Linus cartoon.. where Linus, I think

it's Linus, has this deck of 52 cards, and it's in a form of a pyramid..

and I put at the bottom of it postmillenialism.. but I think we're all

postmills to be honest.. in part we are.. and he has one more card, and

if he gets it up, he's got it, this pyramid.. but what he doesn't know

is over his shoulder is a baseball coming right at it.. and he says one

more card.. just one more card and it will be complete.. we have been

preaching that.. the problem with that theory is.. it denies depravity..

if there's one emperical truth, even apart from Scripture, that is

true.. proven time and time again.. that there's something corrupt and

corruptible in each one of us.. the pyramid never gets complete.. but we

all preach that in our soul.. that there's a golden meadow if I just do

one more thing right.. and the trouble is, you do it, and when you do

it, you're condemned.. because the meadow doesn't come.. I think that's

what happened to classical pentecostalism.. they just have swallow

hard...