December 3, 1993



..chapel just ran indeterminably late.... it was a panel.. and you can't

control those things.. just go go go..... there's a lot of political

things going on there.. that's what's fun.. you really know... silence

teaches a lot..



re: MacArthur and like.. they're not invincible.. because they overstate

it, and once you get people ugly.. firing at each other.. the battle

goes.. and we deserve it.. I mean, I used to use Peter Master's book to

criticize signs and wonders.. I had to give it up.. got some great

strokes in there, but overall he's overstating.. finding something.. I

just have for the family to start getting ugly with each other.. we

deserve it.. my feeling is, we really deserve it..



student: at the end of the book, I thought he gave a really beautiful

plea for unity..



..but if you read the book, it's not brothers seeking and searching the

scriptures who care, it's accusation of heresy.. those are important..

you can't make those judgment.. it's not heresy.. it's just that we're

not satisfied with that interpretation.. now, I'm pretty sure that

things are said that are abominable.. but I've heard evangelicals say

things.... I just think you need to be fair.. there's nothing gained,

there is really nothing gained by prefacing your arguments to win a

point.. just be honest.. you might be honestly wrong, but at least be

honest.. and if your point is weak, it's just flat weak.. that's okay..

I don't think we have to win by distortion.. and I see us so zealous to

win.. that we win too early and we win with an avalanche.. when it

should've been a trinkle.. and it'll catch up to us.. I think with the

charismatic movement is getting guys in it.. as it matures.. who are

ready to respond to us.. and there's a lot of fodder out there in which

they can chew us up... that's sad, because if we've just been a little

more careful, we could've said mostly the same things.. without the

backlash.... I wouldn't read John MacArthur if I wanted a true picture,

for about anything I've read him on... he's a good man, he's a pastor..

and why he writes his books unqualified.. you know, I would criticize

John Wimber this way: I cannot criticize his book basically.. he

qualifies himself, he's careful enough that you have to bring a whole

bunch of presuppositional baggage into his Power Points book to really

go after it.. but I've listened to his tapes and I've been in his

meetings.. and there is two John Wimbers.. there's the easy going,

jolly, bubbly, teddy bear man that we've all adore because he's

wonderful.. but you turn him loose with the lights on, and he says

things that are abominable.. but before we get too excited, I've seen us

do it too.. and it's not a us or a them, don't think we'll ever get into

that.. but there's a tendency of all of us, preachers are like that,

they tend to invoke volume of lung and excitement with truth.. and we

all tend to be paranoic.. meaning, to get a point across we overstate

it.. we want five yards, we're going to go for nine, and get the five...

we don't have to win on a given day, we don't even have to win.. we just

have to be honest with Scripture.. we may not have the most forcible

argument, but as culture change, questions change.. and if we're right,

we'll win, for the Lord.. sometimes, we're all given questions that

we're not a position to answer.... if we're careful, we'll still have

credibility and we can go on.. and I'm not saying I'm charismatic, I'm

not, but, I guess, the more I study.. the more.. I just don't see it as

simple.... this next week I'm going to sit down with a pastor of the

Vineyard church in Dallas.. talk a bit.. we have a mutual friend who was

a student.. who's now at Gordon-Conwell, but I sent that friend over to

that church.. I thought he'd fit in.. and now he wants to figure out why

I would do such a thing.. so that's going to be interesting.. I'm going

to have to tell him that I think we're part of the body of Christ.. we

have the same gospel.. and what is really important is not the

trinketry.. what I would really say to them, is if you have all the

gifts being practiced, I wish there was one that you would practice..

and that seems to be one you guys miss a lot of time.. and that's the

gift of discernment.. where is that.. and they'd turn around and say the

same thing to me.... I want to remain friends.. I don't have to agree

with them..



..they don't have any real barriers or anything.. I don't mean this

wrongly.. they don't seem to calculate the possible damage of charging

into something.. they just charge right into it.. which is nice.. I

remember a travel agent telling me that.. and he was not a saved man..

but he said, when I book tours to Israel with charismatic groups, they

never ask me what the political situation is.. but when I deal with

protestants, I have to give them money, because if they hear that

they're killing, they won't go, because they're afraid of their lives..

but the charismatics aren't.. there's a higher rate of martyology among

the charismatics than among us.... because they just will go.. that

excitement about not caring about their life.. that it's not worth that

much.. if it's right to do, you don't worry about what the implications

are.. we've lost.. that momentum in evangelicalism.. we all want to be

safe and secure.. have you ever noticed that.. a kid will come home and

say, I've decided to go into ministry, mom will say.. be sure to get

your degree in case you fail.. we've never done that in the kingdom

before.. because we always held the ministry, sacrifice.. throw your

life away, as the highest calling that a child can have.. I think the

charismatics still do... you got to say what's wrong with us.. don't buy

their system.. I don't think there's any golden rabbit or maturity.. I

don't think maturity has anything to do with spiritual gifts.. I don't

think it has anything to do with.. a supposed later baptism of the

spirit.. there's no rabbit's foot to walking with God.. it's hard work..

self-denial.. so whether they will go and kill these albatrosses or not,

that's not the issue.. but when you've said it all.. they will go and

serve their Lord.. and not count the cost like we tend to have to do..

they seem to be a dynamically growing movement.. that's willing to take

chance.. where we are a shinking movement that's going to protect

ourselves.. don't agree with them.. don't get me wrong..



..sometimes you read the Bible, you get better [passages for] arguments

than those people use [for their proof text].... if you've found a text

that's better, find out if they've found it.. if I were John, I'd use

James 1.. but run from James 5.... but traditionally that's what they

use..



..I would try to read scripture with the idea in the back of my mind

that.. what other view would be stronger if they used the text that I'm

reading.. have you ever done that.. just for the sheer fun of it.. I was

reading the end of the Judges... the guy had the concubine.. incestuous,

take my virgin daughter.. I asked a guy about that in Bible Exposition

about that, and he just looked at me and smiled.. which means I hit a

point he couldn't answer.. and then all the tribes get together and they

decide to wipe out Benjamin.. and in the process they kill about 40,000

of their own, and finally they wipe out Benjamin down to 600 people..

men, women, and children... and they go find them some women... they

know there's a spring festival in Shechem where the virgins come out and

dance.... so they steal 200... ah yi yi.. you know, if liberal had read

the Bible, he would build a better case.. I mean, when I read that, I

thought, the next time try to defend liberalism, I'm going to use that

text.. this god's morals improved over time as he grew up.. and by the

time of Isaiah... he got it together.. so god evolved in moral

consciousness.. so you can justify these terrible things if just read

the bible.. we answer it by saying something like dispensationalism.. I

read this thing, what do you do with it.. they were just wicked..

wickedness qualifies us for nothing.. strange.. so as I read the Bible,

I just take verses, if I were to defend a position I don't believe, this

is a better verse to use.. because you always want to use the best..



prayer: our father, we love you, we really do.. we thank you for your

son, the Lord Jesus.. we love to be, our father, as broad as the body of

your redemption.. we want to be discerning people.. and that takes skill

beyond our limitations.. and we just lay them at your feet.. give us

maturity.. help us to take into account what you've said in John 17..

that we would be one.. and yet, help us be very discerning people.. we

pray our father not only for understanding, but compassion.. help us

today.. there's nothing to be gained.. help us not to be arrogant..

believing that we have an one-ups-manship.. we are simply people who

have struggled with the holy scripture, and seek to teach them aright..

so give us utmost humility.. give us discernment.. give us a great love,

O God, not to change them to what we are, but to serve them where they

are.. that we all might come to maturity in the savior.. we give our few

moments to you.. say to you our God.. we love you.. in Jesus' name.

Amen.



...I do believe Christians can be possessed of the devil, I really do..

some believe we can be oppressed.. only.. because of the dwelling of the

Spirit.. but my problem with that view is.. that oppression and

possession can't be distinguished.. that's my problem.. and plus, I

believe wickedness and righteousness can co-dwell.. because wickedness

and righteousness aren't things.. they're characteristics.. and

therefore we can have contrary characteristics simultaneously, as we all

do.. so far so good..



..as you search through the Bible, you can't find people cursing people

that's an effectual cursing.. people can under the power of God invoke a

curse, but that curse is God's curse.. so far so good.... the only

curses that are effectual in Scripture are the ones that God pronounces,

and are directly or intermediary.. and they are never taken off.. and

that's the tragedy of it.. once you've got it, you've got it.... so

there is no instances of being cursed by God, in which it's lifted..



..there are no examples in Scripture of a saved person under a satanic

curse which has to be broken by some form of Christian exorcism.. also,

there are no instructions for such exorcism.. no instruction for

healings.. and there is no instruction for exorcism.. now, unsaved

people are overcome.. or saved people coming into Christianity with

baggage..